So... why DRM?

[darkhog]

Posting here so it won't scare potential new customers as rarely anyone looks in the offtopic section first.

I am genuinely curious why did you invest time, money and energy nto implementng a DRM for NESMaker. There's literally no reason to implement a DRM these days, not financial, not any.

First of all, I could easily disable that silly DRM with just ILSpy. Not going to do that, but it'd be easy. Next, I'd like to go through every possible reason I can think off for you to implement one and tell you why it's bovine excrements.

- Piracy & lost sales

First of all, NM is a niche product. Niche products are rarely pirated, especially one such as this. Secondly, pirates will always find a way. They broke Denuvo, for pete's sake. True, Voksi is behind bars now, but how long will it be before someone else decides to break Denuvo just because? Lost sales are a myth either - if people won't buy it, they won't buy it, regardless whether or not pirate version is available. I suggest reading this amazing series of articles that may straighten few things up. This was one of the more obvious reasons, now onto the others. Please note that at no point I claim that's why you did that, just going through of all reason that I think are possible.

- You want complete control over how software is used.

If this is one of the reasons you use DRM for NES Maker, it's really worrisome for me. 2 activation limit and having to reactivate the software that otherwise would work on any machine regardless of whether or not is connected to the internet is kinda harsh, don't you think? Not to mention that "use NES Maker to do original content only" thing on the splash, which I think is cute. Listen up, people will use it to make fangames and whatnot, yes even based on Nintendo games (using it as a Zelda Maker is one of the more obvious choices), just like they do it with game maker or Unity. And the only people that could be held accountable for such are developers themselves. You (Joe and co) have nothing to worry about. I mean, is a knife manufacturer responsible for all stabbings or a person who does the stabbing? You can't do anything about that, anyway.

- You think people who downloaded a pirated copy would make some high profile NES homebrew and you wouldn't see a dime.

Again, read this amazing series of articles. Once you do, you will know about CwF+RtB formula (connect with fans + reason to buy). Yes, it was originally coined for music/film industries, but it works for other industries such as game dev as well. The RtB part is obvious - you are the only seller of flashers and blank cartridges that are guaranteed to work with NES Maker. Yes, INL has its own store as well, but their flashers are not guaranteed to work with NM, unlike flashers bought through you. You are pretty good with connecting with fans as well so people will buy NM just to support you - you don't need DRM to force them to do that. Not to mention that if they going to sell a game made with NM, they're getting into large amount of issues and not necessarily only legal ones - imagine someone telling eBay or Amazon that the game being sold was made using pirated software - listings would go down fast.

Also, two activations limit? Seriously???

 

[MistSonata]

I agree somewhat about the two computer activation limit, I wish there was a way to buy more slots or something, but I think for most people two is fine.

First of all, the DRM for NESmaker is fine. You can use it offline, and it only needs to connect to the internet once a month or so. Unlike other DRM which often requires constant connection and affects performance, the DRM on NESmaker does neither. Apart from the activation limit and the occasional hiccup, the impact on the end user is next to nothing. If it bothers you that much, just remove the DRM yourself. You said it was easy, so why is this an issue for you?

Second, your assertion that no lost sales will occur due to a lack of DRM is at best unproven. Even if Joe took that assertion on faith, though, why would he take that risk? This is a passion project, yes, but he also has a family to support, and if it's not making him money, he can't spend time on it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm someone who's against ultra-restrictive DRM like Denuvo, but the impact of NESmaker's DRM on the end-user is negligible.

 

[darkhog]

It isn't my place to remove NM's DRM plus I would have to do each time new version is released. Again, people will buy from Joe, just to get flashers and carts that are guaranteed to work with software. You can't download hardware yet (and it will be somewhat long time before you can since 3d printing electronics is quite a way off).

 

[functionalform]

just want to point out the store page on the new8bitheroes site is just a link to INL.

you can still order mapper30 pcbs without the shells from them, and the flasher works with any of their nes boards.
the only thing "special" is the NM peeps got the newer revision (no longer usb 1) without the SNES/SFC port

you could use your original flasher to make carts with the inl boards and use your own shells.
or hell even assemble your own mapper 30/un-rom pcbs

 

[UltraNarwhal]

I'm also not a fan of DRM that locks paying customer out if it can't phone home, though it's slightly different with applications than games. Games with restrictive DRM I won't buy as I want to play them in the far future, with applications it's rare that I'd use the same software for a long time.

NESmakers DRM seems to use softworkz highest level, but I'm guessing it can be lowered to be less restrictive (no monthly checks).

The main worry for this sort of DRM is that the DRM servers become unavailable and customers can't use their software, but I'd like to think as 8BitHeroes aren't big corporation and this is passion project they'd patch out the restriction if that happened.

 

[MistSonata]

The main worry for this sort of DRM is that the DRM servers become unavailable and customers can't use their software, but I'd like to think as 8BitHeroes aren't big corporation and this is passion project they'd patch out the restriction if that happened.[/color]

I'm sure if it came to that, Joe would either remove the DRM or find a new DRM server to work with. From what I've seen, this project is very important to him.

 

[dale_coop]

Yes it's his life, Mystic Searches and NESMaker...
I would suggest everyone here to watch the film "The New 8bit Heroes" on Amazon video (rent or even buy the blu-ray)! It resumes perfectly Joe's motivations and the dream of a lot of us.

 

[Mihoshi20]

I think 2 computers are fair. 3 computers would be more fair. 5 or more is a bit much. NESmaker is a very niche product for an ever more niche user base. Though I'm not in the habit of ever depending DRM, this is by far the least intrusive only being a DLL that wants to phone home like once a month. Be nice if it wasn't there but for the general public it'll barely be noticed and advanced user who can switch it off and so long as they've paid for their personal copy probably will along with switching off that annoying splash screen. I don't see the DRM as an issue as most users will probably only use it on two system.

The only part that is annoying about it is not being able to de-authorize systems yourself. I could though see a situation where you have it running on a laptop away from internet or wifi and close out the program only to reopen it to require activation and unable to be near wifi or internet for a few hours or don't trust the public wifi nearby.

 

[dale_coop]

Agree, "5" would be the perfect number.
(between home pc, work pc, notebooks...) NESMaker anytime, anywhere.

 

[Mihoshi20]

Agree, "5" would be the perfect number.
(between home pc, work pc, notebooks...) NESMaker anytime, anywhere.

I still think 3 really is a good max. 5 is a bit much. Are you really going to copy your project to a flash drive and sync it to 5 different computers each time you make a change? Most will probably do 3 especially if they're a dev. When I was working in GameMaker Studio doing android apps I'd sync the projects between my office dev computer, my laptop, and my home desktop. Most NESmaker devs will probably be hobbyists at most so I could easily see a desktop, laptop, and maybe a kids computer.

 

[dale_coop]

Yep 3 might be good. You right, I would might use 5 pc...

 

[opt2not]

I don't think there should be a limit on the number of seats at all, tbh. Look at all the game engines out there on the market now, most of them don't limit your installs, only your "publishing" abilities. Some are even free, with stipulations around commercial usage.

Personally the 2 seat limit is very...well, limiting. It forces you to a 1 or 2 person team, limiting the amount of people able to work on your game at one time.

I really don't understand the motivation behind the DRM for this as well.

 

[functionalform]

locking out the publishing abilities would be difficult, there's nothing stopping someone from taking the edited asm files and compiling it themselves.
the only reasonable answer is to lock out entering the program.

the 2 seat limit is because studios don't just buy one license for the entire building.
usually it's one seat per license on alot of things, especially in the realm of art and game software.

the reason why you see some engines are free with stipulations is mainly because of the user base and royalties.
the 3 person team bringing us this software have neither in a large enough numbers to support their efforts in this manner.

i understand the light amount of drm on this program, how many people have posted in this forum and on facebook that are trying to activate without purchasing?
or complaints that it's even pay in the first place, as if joe & co. shouldn't be compensated for their time and efforts?

 

[darkhog]

Because releasing NES homebrew is so profitable nowadays /s

 

[opt2not]

locking out the publishing abilities would be difficult, there's nothing stopping someone from taking the edited asm files and compiling it themselves.
the only reasonable answer is to lock out entering the program.

the 2 seat limit is because studios don't just buy one license for the entire building.
usually it's one seat per license on alot of things, especially in the realm of art and game software.

the reason why you see some engines are free with stipulations is mainly because of the user base and royalties.
the 3 person team bringing us this software have neither in a large enough numbers to support their efforts in this manner.

i understand the light amount of drm on this program, how many people have posted in this forum and on facebook that are trying to activate without purchasing?
or complaints that it's even pay in the first place, as if joe & co. shouldn't be compensated for their time and efforts?

You make some fair points, but they're all based on the idea that "studios" are using this to make successful commercial games, which there really isn't that big of market for. NES Maker is for hobbyists or homebrewers. There is no real market to "get rich" off these games, and adding DRM as if there is a large-scale profitable economy for NES games is a bit overkill/silly.

If removing DRM completely just isn't in the cards, then at least increase it to 3-5. Having only you and 1 other buddy able to work on a game at once kinda sucks. I personally have 3 other friends that I could recruit in helping build a game in this. But buying 2 copies of the engine is just off-putting and I don't want to sound negative, but it's "nickle & diming" your user base.

 

[MistSonata]

You make some fair points, but they're all based on the idea that "studios" are using this to make successful commercial games, which there really isn't that big of market for. NES Maker is for hobbyists or homebrewers. There is no real market to "get rich" off these games, and adding DRM as if there is a large-scale profitable economy for NES games is a bit overkill/silly.

If removing DRM completely just isn't in the cards, then at least increase it to 3-5. Having only you and 1 other buddy able to work on a game at once kinda sucks. I personally have 3 other friends that I could recruit in helping build a game in this. But buying 2 copies of the engine is just off-putting and I don't want to sound negative, but it's "nickle & diming" your user base.

Allowing unlimited seats on a license without being in danger of someone just giving out their key and letting anyone download and use the software for free would be far more work than just limiting the seats across the board. Again, I do wish that there were one or two more, but the software is so cheap that I don't really think it matters.

I mean, considering that the price for a license is about half the price of a new video game, I think complaining about not having enough seats for a team is a bit weird. Like expecting to be able to play a video game online with a friend without that friend purchasing the game themselves. If you're so hard up for cash that you and your friends can't pool together $17 each for two more copies, then I don't know what to tell you except to express my deep sympathy for your impoverished situation and hope that things get better for you.

 

[darkhog]

Like expecting to be able to play a video game online with a friend without that friend purchasing the game themselves.

Funny you say that, because A Way Out, a co-op only game, does exactly that. And I don't think having unlimited license activations would be too much work. In fact, quite the opposite. If the key lands on some key site or along with NM torrent, they can just band the key altogether. Meanwhile, it will take them much more work to respond to all "deactivation" e-mails from people who either sold, gave away or had stolen the computer they were using NM on and ran out of activations.

 

[MistSonata]

Funny you say that, because A Way Out, a co-op only game, does exactly that. And I don't think having unlimited license activations would be too much work. In fact, quite the opposite. If the key lands on some key site or along with NM torrent, they can just band the key altogether. Meanwhile, it will take them much more work to respond to all "deactivation" e-mails from people who either sold, gave away or had stolen the computer they were using NM on and ran out of activations.

Of course A Way Out does that, it's a co-op ONLY game.

Anyway, I think ultimately the person who should decide what is or isn't too much work is Joe himself.

 

[opt2not]

If you're so hard up for cash that you and your friends can't pool together $17 each for two more copies, then I don't know what to tell you except to express my deep sympathy for your impoverished situation and hope that things get better for you.

Thank you for your thoughtful remarks and concern. We will be fine. :roll:

It's not really about the money, it's the principle. Harsh licencing limitations are not what people expect from a small indie homebrew software package like this. Quite frankly, seat/Install limitations is a corporate software move, something that doesn't really make sense for hobbyists. A lot of small scale software packages that we use in this scene do not limit your installs. I myself use various software on multiple computers (home PC, tablet for on-the-go, work PC for lunchtime hobby work, etc...), and it's great to not have to keep track of multiple licenses or have to purchase the software multiple times just to be able to have access it from multiple machines.

Don't get me wrong, I like NES Maker, but the install licensing is just a small annoyance that could be avoided.
We can agree to disagree, but this will be the last I am going to add to the subject, as the tone is going down a path that I'd rather not participate in.

 

[MistSonata]

Thank you for your thoughtful remarks and concern. We will be fine. :roll:

It's not really about the money, it's the principle. Harsh licencing limitations are not what people expect from a small indie homebrew software package like this. Quite frankly, seat/Install limitations is a corporate software move, something that doesn't really make sense for hobbyists. A lot of small scale software packages that we use in this scene do not limit your installs. I myself use various software on multiple computers (home PC, tablet for on-the-go, work PC for lunchtime hobby work, etc...), and it's great to not have to keep track of multiple licenses or have to purchase the software multiple times just to be able to have access it from multiple machines.

Don't get me wrong, I like NES Maker, but the install licensing is just a small annoyance that could be avoided.
We can agree to disagree, but this will be the last I am going to add to the subject, as the tone is going down a path that I'd rather not participate in.

Expressing a negative or insulting tone wasn't my intention. While I'm frustrated that you and others want Joe to allow unlimited installs on a software that's already relatively cheap, my concern for your situation was genuine because I've been there myself. My family was poor growing up, even homeless at one point, and I have a permanent needle mark on my arm because I had to donate plasma twice a week for a year just to eat. I understand exactly how it feels to want something very badly but not have the money to get it, it's a big reason why I used to pirate so many games and movies, because it was the only way for me to stay entertained and still be able to eat. It wasn't going to happen any other way.

Anyway, I hope there's a compromise there somewhere. I don't know how many options the softworkz gives, but maybe Joe could give the option to buy extra install slots or something. Who knows.